Peter Pinson: It's February 2013 and we're at Wedderburn. Wedderburn is on the outskirts of Campbelltown. It's about 60 kilometres southwest of the centre of Sydney. This is the home of Elisabeth Cummings.

Elisabeth, your father was an architect and a distinguished academic. Did this influence your initial interest in the visual arts?

Elisabeth Cummings: Oh possibly, because my father was always interested in the visual arts, not just architecture. I mean, he really loved painting and sculpture. He had painter friends, sculptor friends. So yes and we had paintings and sculpture in the house. So, yes, it would've. And we had books that we looked at. So, yes, that was...I'm sure that helped, yes.

Peter: So...so your family was sympathetic to your following a career in art.

Elisabeth: They were, yes, which was lucky.

Peter: You studied at the National Art School in Sydney. Was this an influential period for you?

Elisabeth: It was. Yes, well I...I was in Brisbane. My family were in Brisbane. And I met Margaret Cilento in my last year at school and I would use to go to paint with her on a Saturday morning. And she talked about the National Art School – East Sydney Tech.

And that really inspired me to hope to go. My parents were in Europe that year. And when they came back, they were in a very good mood. And...I said I wanted to go to Sydney and I did. So it was, it was lucky, yes, because my mother was always cross that she'd let me go so easily.

But it was a good thing for me. It was wonderful. Because there wasn't a good art school in...in Brisbane. And, yes, it just opened up a whole world for me, it was very good.

Peter: Were there any teachers there who were particularly influential on your development?

Elisabeth: Eh, yes, eh...Godfrey Miller...was, in his own way. He was...just an interesting character. He didn't say much, but what he did say was always...one took notice. And sometimes it didn't register till quite a while later.

But eh...and he used to come...Dorothy Thornhill had a life drawing class and Godfrey used to come and draw in that class. And he...and it was...when Godfrey was in the class, it was totally reverent atmosphere. We would never come late, and we would never chatter. We just worked very seriously, because Godfrey was so serious about drawings.

And occasionally, he would show us some of his drawings, which, of course, we were very honoured to see. Yes...so...he was a big influence in that way, that whole seriousness of being a painter and an artist, that aspect of it, was...that was Godfrey's influence.

There were other good teachers, but...Jimmy Cook was a wonderfully gregarious man with lots of stories and lots of...very enthusiastic, and...yes...encouraging teacher. Ralph Balson was an interesting teacher, too, who just had that little bit of...one class a week, which was called Abstract Art.

And, Ralph Balson came in. He was a very shy man, but he also gave us that sense of the seriousness of being a painter, and we also, you know, were very impressed by him as a person and a painter.

Peter: In 1958, you won the New South Wales Travelling Art Scholarship. You were 24, 25. This prize was awarded on the basis of a wide and searching submission, requiring examples of portraiture, figure composition, drawing, et cetera. How long had you been working, preparing your submission?

Elisabeth: Oh...I don't remember how long. But I did...a friend of mine, eh, modeled for me for the life painting, and I had...I mean did a lot of drawings. You know...our training in those days was, you know, we did a lot of life painting and a lot of life drawing. So...I just kept on doing life drawing, and I don't know, I just had a collection of life drawing, and then I had other paintings, too, that I put in.

I think I did a portrait of my sister. And...yeah...I don't know how long I took, really. But anyway, that year, I finished Tech I think in 1957, so I would have kept on painting. So, paintings that happened after that until the scholarship would have gone into the scholarship.

Peter: Where did the scholarship take you?

Elisabeth: Well, one could go to Europe, and I went to Italy. And I went to Florence, because I had friends there. And there was a villa outside Florence where two or three of my friends had apartments and good places to work, and so I went there. And, that was the beginning of living in Italy. Very exciting for me.

Peter: In 1961, towards the end of your scholarship, you studied with Oskar Kokoschka in Salzburg. Can you speak about that experience?

Elisabeth: Yes, well he had a, a yearly school called a School of Vision in Salzburg in the...in the castle. I don't know if you know Salzburg. There's a castle up on this great sort of rock, fortress-like structure of rock. And the castle was there, and he had his school there. And people came from all over...all over Europe and America, and eh, mostly young people. He had a few other young teachers helping him.

But he went round to every...we had a model all the time, and models changing. We'd have two models sometimes, but models all day. And we did a lot of quick work from the model with watercolour, or gouache. And that's what everyone did.

And, he went round to every student each day for the...the length of the workshop. 'Course, he was an old man then. He was remarkable, and he gave a comment and a criticism of each person's work. And if he liked your work, he'd give you a lolly and write "OK" on it.

Peter: Did you get a lolly?

Elisabeth: Sometimes.

Peter: Was there an Expressionist demeanour in the class?

Elisabeth: There was. The European students, yes, and the Americans, a lot of them, were much more expressionistic and much more in Kokos...Kokoschka’s own expressionistic mode. We, I mean, the Australians. There were a couple of other Australians there at the time, but were more, yes, more structured formal.

Yes. It was good for me to see the other way, yes, because it was, ah certainly, anoth...anoth, a new approach for me, which was good to loosen up and look at the figure in that way instead of that structuring that we were used to doing. That had been our training, and I still did it, yes.

Peter: The New South Wales Traveling Art Scholarship required scholars to study formally somewhere. I suppose your studies with Oskar Kokoschka counted towards that formal study. Was there anywhere else you studied while you were overseas?

Elisabeth: Well I didn't do much formal study. I know that was one of the requirements, but I had all those years. I didn't want to, you know, go to an art school perma...full time. But in Florence, I went to the Academia and did etching. So I did some print making there. That was my gesture towards formal study. Then when I was in Paris -- because before I settled in Florence, eventually, I first went to Florence then I went to Paris and London.

I was in Paris for some months, and I went to the Grande Chaumière and just drew from the figure. You know, so, I went to the life drawing drawing classes in the Grande Chaumière Art School. Which, one could just go in there and pay a little bit and draw. And so that was another.

But otherwise I just worked. You know, I wanted to just work myself, in between looking at all the things there were to look at in Italy and traveling around and looking at...There's so much in Italy, and then in Paris and London, too. So, for me, it was a time of looking, too. So much. Yeah.

Peter: Do you think seeing all these old master works influenced your own development?

Elisabeth: It's hard to know. I think everything you look at influences you in some way. To look at a painting that's a fantastic painting, one hopes. If you know, you know what a good painting is. And that's...that's surely an influence. But, I mean there were a whole range of things from all the old masters going way back to the early paintings to...through to...certainly in Paris, and then also in Milano. We went to Milan.

Eh...there were the contemporary painters. There were shows of the American painters. And of course, there were the Italian contemporary painters, British contemporary painters and [indecipherable]. So all of that was very interesting to see.

And in pace...There is so much...right up to contemporary...which I hadn't seen a lot of the...So much contemporary art was all new to me.

Peter: In 1968, 10 years after winning the scholarship, you returned to Australia. As far as the art you saw being exhibited in Sydney at that time, did you come to feel that the course you were following in your painting was a somewhat solitary one?

Elisabeth: Very much so, yes, very much so. I was still painting landscapes and still-life, eh...yes, in a...sort of semi-impressionistic way, I guess. It was certainly very different from what was happening with a lot of the painting that was happening in Sydney at that time.

I think they just had, when I came back, I think they just had the big Field exhibition, and that made a big influence. That there were a lot of the younger painters doing their very big canvasses with the hard edge. And in the art school, too, there was masking tape everywhere, and they were...that was one of the main thrusts at that particular time.

I mean there were all sorts of other things happening too, but that was the main one, I think. And then, of course, things changed and different things started to happen. So it was all...it was very interesting to start teaching and seeing what art students were doing. That's always...been exciting to see what happens in the art schools and what happens with other painters. It all goes into the pot.

Peter: Wedderburn. How did you come to move to this wonderful bush land place?

Elisabeth: Yes, that was...because a friend had this property. Friends, Barbara and Nick Romalis, had this land at Wedderburn. And when we came back to Sydney, I was very keen…I think the thing, being away from Australia, what I missed most was the bush. Being in...being in the bush, really. Just that, the physical thing of Australia that's so...so different from Europe.

And I just felt I'd love to have a place, a working place, a studio in some sort of bush situation. So I was looking around vaguely for a place where I might find a...a situation where I could build a studio in the bush. Still, of course, be based in Sydney because having a child at school and teaching.

And Barb and Nick Romalis...we came out here and visited. And Barb and I just walked through this bit of bush. I wasn't even thinking of Wedderburn, and she later got in touch and said, "Nick and I want to give 10 acres of our land for artists to build studios" which was an incredible gift. So I came up and had the tent here, and eventually built the studio.

And then the others came, bit by bit, so there were five of us now on 25 acres. They gave 10 and eventually we bought 15 acres from them. Very, you know...it was a gift really. Very cheap.

Peter: So how much land do you, personally, have?

Elisabeth: We have a company. We own the 25 acres together as a company. All I own is the bricks and...you know, my mud bricks, and this house. This studio house.

Peter: Who are the other artists who share in this 25 acres?

Elisabeth: Roy Jackson and Fred Braat. John Peart and Joan Brassil was...one of the original artists. And...Joan died about four years ago. And we now have found another artist...she's a writer, a poet, and a performer. And I think Joan would have been very happy to have Theresa. So we have a young woman in Joan's studio now.

Peter: So these artists, Sue Archer, David Fairbairn, Roy Jackson, John Peart, all work in varying degrees with abstraction, and all are essentially expressionists. In the early years of your gathering here, how much did you interact with these very talented neighbours?

Elisabeth: Oh well, we've always interacted in...We're all friends and we've remained friends...and we're always interested in each other's work. But we do keep very much in our own workspace. And em...yes...We interact socially, and, of course, we talk about painting. But...yes, I don't...it's hard to know. All...I think all, yes...there's certainly great sympathy for each other's work.

Peter: We spoke earlier of that period in the late 60's where perhaps your course was a rather solitary one. Now you found yourself working in the company of good artists painting in ways that were broadly sympathetic to your own. Did you find that a welcome change?

Elisabeth: Uh...yes, well it's...it's been wonderful to be in a situation where I have people...other artists very close and know that they're there. And yet everyone has one's own...working time, working way. And...it's just...yet it's been very...it's been wonderful, really, to have...to know that they're there. So we didn't even start off with any ideal of a community or...It just...it just grew very slowly, and it's worked.

Peter: This area suffered a terrifying bushfire in 1994. Were you tempted to abandon Wedderburn after that dreadful experience?

Elisabeth: No. I've never been tempted to leave, no. Living here, bushfires...is just something one lives within the summer, that possibility of bushfire. And...I've accepted that. I've been lucky. We just had that one...big scare. And I lost a little studio...but I didn't lose the main place. If I'd lost the main...my main studio house, I don't know whether I would've re-built or left. It's hard to know.

But we've all been...no...We've lasted this distance without any of us losing...a building. I just lost a little studio, and I was able to build my...my addition afterwards.

Peter: You've made a number of tours into the outback with other artists. Who are some of those people who've travelled with you?

Elisabeth: Oh, well, recently, we had a trip to the Kimberley that was organised through the Australian Wildlife Conservancy. And John Peart went on that, Idris Murphy, Peter Godwin, and Lucy Culliton. And um, yes we were away for about a week and all worked, painted. We'll have a show later in the year of works based on that experience.

And other times, I've been with other friends or other groups of painters over the years. Sometimes just one painter or sometimes a group.

With Leo Robba, he's organised groups with a number of painters. Euan Macleod, Reg Mombassa, Chris O’Doherty, and a number of other painters who were interested in landscape.

Peter: How did those expeditions nourish your work?

Elisabeth: Oh, well I love getting out into that...into...the centre of Australia. I...we've been to the Flinders a few times. And also, out of the Larapinta. I've had different trips...a number of different trips.

The Pilbara, I went to the Pilbara with friends, David Collins and Anna Pollak. They were there. They were staying there for a while and I went and stayed with them. And that was fantastic, too.

So, just to have time to be in a landscape and...and absorb it as much as one can in two or three weeks. Eh...it's, it's...I've...it really has nourished my work.

Peter: What might a typical day's timetable be like on those expeditions?

Elisabeth: Oh yes, well...the people who...the painters who've gone on these trips are really wanting to get on and paint. Some of them like Lucy Culliton, is...she's out there very early. And...six o'clock, Lucy can have her easel up and she's doing her first painting.

And Euan also is amazing, the amount of work he does on these trips. He really works extremely hard, and into the night, too.

My pace is a little less intense. But I start after breakfast and have lunch and then paint again in the afternoon. Yes, it's...it's intense.

Peter: Is there a tendency for the artists to gather around at the end of the day and talk about each other's work?

Elisabeth: It happens. People put up...We had a very interesting trip to Fowlers Gap. That was with Idris and Ross Laurie, Euan and...Jo Frost. No a number...and...Jennifer Keeler-Milne and...yes, and...Ross Laurie, did I mention Ross Laurie? We put up Amanda Penrose Hart.

We put our paintings often at the end of the day. We might comment on each other's work. Yes.

Peter: Do you often complete paintings on site or do you prefer to bring the ideas and the studies back to your studio at the end of the tour for resolution?

Elisabeth: Oh yes. I generally work with gouache or I do a lot of drawings, and I work on small...on paper, you know, with gouache. So they're studies that I bring back and then develop paintings...larger paintings from them. Or they trigger the memory of the place.

But the, yes...sometimes, on some of the trips I've taken, oils, but they're always smaller paintings. So they're always just an out there...around when I'm painting in the bigger paintings.

Peter: Looking at your landscapes, do you see something quintessentially Australian about them or could they equally have been landscape paintings of Europe?

Elisabeth: Well it's hard for me to judge that. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, the European influences have always been strong with my painting, I guess. But, of course, I'm trying to...capture something of this land that I go into...that's done naturally. So, it's hard, it's hard for me to know if my paintings capture anything Australian. One would hope so, but who knows.

Peter: Your first retrospective exhibition was at the Campbelltown Art Gallery in 1996. You were 62. Sometimes looking at a survey of one's career...is it time for stock-taking? ...Was it like that for you? Did that opportunity for reflection provoke any change in the way you made your work?

Elisabeth: Um...it is very interesting to see a body of your work from the past and to, as you say, stock-take...I don't think it made any dramatic changes because you know, as I...as that show was there, I was still just going on working, and so whether...working on what I was working on. There's always a whole bunch of things that I wanted to do, and so I just would be going on with them anyway, I guess.

But I know it should be a time of reassessment and perhaps a time of maybe a big change. I never managed that. I'm not good at making big jumps. It's a slow process, and...yes.

Peter: There may have been a tendency towards an increasing degree of abstraction and perhaps towards painterliness through your career. But you usually retain references to the seen world...things you've seen in the landscape, things you've seen in interiors. Is it...how important is it that there be a reference to things in that visual world for you?

Elisabeth: Well, I guess it's very important because the visual world...is so rich. There's so much there. And I feel...yes, pure abstraction...I have occasionally, of course, done paintings that don't refer to the visual world.

But on the whole, yes, I'm excited by something I've seen in the visual world. That's what triggers, that's what starts me off. And...and memories of stuff I've seen. It's all about what I've experienced. And...yes, yes it is important. I still need to refer to what I see.

Peter: Looking back over your distinguished career, is there anything you wish you had done differently?

Elisabeth: Oh...yes well. One could've always painted more. Yes...one reads about painters who...are much, you know, relentlessly focused on their work. I've, of course, been diverted by many things, and I'm a great procrastinator. So...yes, I have to discipline myself. I'm not...I find, acutally painting...when one's in it, it's exciting, frustrating. But sometimes thinking about starting is… yes, I can do a lot of things to avoid it.

Once I'm in working in some fold, but there are thousands of things one can do to...divert...oneself from painting. I tried. I try to be disciplined, but it's not always easy. So I would have wished, in a way, it would have been nice to have that more...yes that concentration. Not that I haven't enjoyed all of the other diversions.

Peter: Elisabeth Cummings, thank you very much.

Elisabeth: Thank you.

Credits

Interviewer: Peter Pinson

Camera, lightning & sound: Cameron Glendinning

Video editing: Dr. Bob Jansen

Technical & assembly: Dr Bob Jansen